Interview I : Elke Luyten
Caterina Verde interviews performance artist, Elke Luyten, whose choreography practice is in partnership with Kira Alker in their company Zus performance.
Luyten is also known for her work with other artists such as Marina Abramović and Robert Wilson. She also created the choreography for, and performed in David Bowie’s short film Blackstar. Luyten also performed in Bowie’s final music video, Lazarus.
Elke Luyten, is originally from Hasselt, Belgium and is now living and working in Newburgh, New York. See more about her work and practice at the end of the interview.
In this interview - Part I — Luyten talks about her re-performance of Marina Abramović’s 12-day durational work, The House with the Ocean View performed at The Royal Academy of the Arts in London for a retrospective of Abramović’s extensive body of work last October 2023. The performance process consisted of a 12-day day fast and living on three raised platforms in the museum. Drinking only water with no other distractions other than dealing with quotidian tasks and performing/interacting with the public for the 10 to12 hours a day during museum hours. October 5th to October 16th.
London, October 2023: Elke Luyten with Marina Abramović just before the performance began.
Elke Luyten: … and there were some guidelines that were written on the wall. For example: taking a shower, three times a day; no talking; no verbal interaction with the audience but creating an energetic exchange with the audience. So that was kind of the setup of the piece.
Caterina Verde: You said earlier that you were surprised at how long the days were in terms of — sometimes they were 12-hour performative days — you're having this interaction. Did you feel like you were getting energy back from the audience?
EL: Yes. I think I thrived because of the exchange of energy between the audience and me. We thrived but we also acknowledged our own sufferings, our own difficulty, our own challenges. Like in my case, it was the fasting, which for example – day two was very painful because I had a lot of stomach cramps. That was when my stomach realized, “oh, it's just going to be hard, there's no food.” So with that interchange with the audience, we kind of pulled each other through the experience that each of us was having.
CV: In a way, that was a kind of sustenance.
EL: What is sustenance?
CV: Sustenance is nourishment — giving you nourishment, in the sense where you’re not getting it through food. Also – did you feel like the audience wanted your attention? Or were they just waiting for you to…
EV: I didn't experience it as this binary thing anymore. Okay, yeah, like, I'm performing and you are not, or in this case you’re asking the questions and I'm answering. Right? It's like our relationship is now reduced to these roles. But being there, I felt that those roles were – even though that was the setup, clearly— I was even on a platform, even my role was more uh, more focused on that. Somehow I felt that these roles were transcendent and it became for me, very much seeing the people as how she (Marina Abramović) called it an ocean. That's why it's called The House with Ocean View. After day one, pretty quickly, I learned that the way I look at people in a social environment, is a very habitual way of looking and experiencing people. But this was not that. Because I realized that the people — on one Friday there were 3,500 visitors.
CV: wow
EL: That's a lot of people. With some of them, I had a very intense connection and relationship with them, and when they left, I was, in the beginning… I was horrified that they would leave. I thought, “hey wait, you’re leaving?” But then I learned that this is the ebb and flow of an ocean. Right? The ocean comes and goes to infinity. There is no Tuesday, there is no Friday, there is no Caterina. In some ways there is no right, there is no food, there is no talking, We can't even articulate what we are going through. So, yeah. I'm still trying to figure out how to put these experiences into language, how to talk about it for myself but then also how to share it with other people.
CV: Yeah, because I'm thinking that you have the internal space of your body that's not eating — we're so used to it and then you're not talking —- because I've been on 10 day silent retreats and people compensate for the lack of speaking by eating more. You know, piles of food. And so now you don't have that and then you have this kind of volume space. (speaking of the environment - the room - the construction - the stage) You've got this space that's highly formalized that details where you can sit. What can you do? You're not reading a book. You're not writing. You're not writing your ideas down – everything is in real time (as it always is) – but again it’s highly formalized and so I find that interesting in terms of — you’ve got this formal space and then you've got no light, at least no daylight — so you're in this one environment for that extended period — it's a multitude of extinguishing — a certain sensory deprivation you know — that's redundant —but the creation of certain kinds of deprivation but you are now filling it in with these tasks that you had to do. So you said you had to take showers three times a day.
EL: Yes, you could. I mean that was written as one of the guidelines – to take showers three times a day. But then I didn't realize that you have to turn the knob all the way (to get hot water) so I was taking ice cold showers, three times a day.
CV: Oh my god…
EL: So, that was very cold. Also, like you say, you're in this huge volume of space, so you take off your clothes – it's like taking off your clothes in the middle of the living room and then taking an ice cold shower…..It was just really cold.
Although now I really miss... and the nutritionist, Lucy Stapler, later said, “Well, in some ways, the cold shower helped you a lot.” Because I became very alert after the cold shower. It really created, yes, alertness, alertness in my brain was the best way to describe it, to bring me back to that. But by the end, I was not capable of taking three showers a day. I just couldn't handle the cold. It was really hard. I think at some point,not sure what day it was– day six or so, I threw up. And that was a little bit of a'' whoa, this is — I need to take better care. I need to kind of learn what my parameters are because I can't keep up.” So, it was a lot. It was such an act of learning. You had to learn very quickly.
CV: Right.
EL: Because, I couldn't be a procrastinator – like, ah, I will do this movement until something happens. No, you have to learn and be very active and gauge where you are at every moment. To balance yourself in relation to the fasting that you are doing. And then this energetic connection with the audience kind of steered the path at some point. Then I realized that I was actually communicating with people's spirit, or the energy of their heart. It kind of goes back to what you were saying about the space, the volume. You have this kind of deprivation and highly formalized structure that you're in. This gallery. Somehow that was all. I can't say that it was left behind in the state that I was in. Or maybe it became more clear. But then at some point there was a transition where I would communicate, just with people’s spirits. Sometimes, I couldn’t see, literally see, I couldn’t see the spirit of the person and then.. but they had very strong and willing energy in their heart. They were so there with their whole heart. That was then something we could connect over. So their appearance kind of became, I don't want to say less important, but not something I was communicating with. Let’s say it that way.
CV: It seems incredibly poignant.
EL: Poignant. I think that's a good one, Because, I remember, you know, at 6:00 the Royal Academy closes. Sometimes they have evening events, and then it is open until 9:00 or 10:00. My lights would go out in the gallery at 10:00. So, but that meant lights out - means not dark, the way we think of it. Because there were always lights on in the gallery. But if the gallery closes at 6:00 and there were no people anymore, the staff would be gone by 6:15 everybody's gone and I remember sitting in the bedroom where my bed was and looking through the hallway of my living room to my bathroom and I did get that perception then –poignant? That’s what you said, right?
CV: Yes, poignancy.
EL: Yeah, it became like a vision — such a clearly defined vision of infinity — that I can see in the hallway but you could argue that while the hallway is not infinite but it became some kind of tunnel view that was very exciting and very calming at the same time. And during or sometime during this process, I was standing, during a performance and I got very tired, my legs were very tired, I felt just so exhausted from the non-eating, but also (there was) this exchange of energy, right? To me it was very intense and very emotional. The first few days, I think I cried more than fifty times. And bawling. Not just crying, but… streams and streams. So, at some point when I was standing, I was so tired… like my body was just aching and tired and at some point I realized my hand and my arm was lying – I was standing but it was laying next to my leg and in my brain, my brain said, “You are energy. This tiredness, that’s just a feeling.” Literally, your body is energy. So that's energy.
CV: Yeah.
Link to short clips of the performance. October 2023, Elke Luyten performs Marina Abramović’s durational work, The House with the Ocean View at The Royal Academy, of the Arts, London.
EV: And it was a huge shift because feelings and emotions are there and they are great — we rely on them so much, but I realized during the performance (and also the audience) — that they come and go. But most of the time, for myself, I realized that the question was, “Are you really letting them go? Are they really going?”
CV: You mean the emotions?
EL: Yes, but they come and go. It is not constant. There's nothing constant about them. You are all energy.
CV: Yeah.
EL: End of story, really. And there is no story right? That's what's really wonderful about the creation of her piece. You realize there is no story. There is no doing. To me the doing was really irrelevant and it became very much about the spirit – sharing your spirit and sharing your energy.
CV: Yeah, that is something for everyone, truly, right?
EL: Yes, then I realized because, I saw, you know, 3500 people and I'm just looking at you. So I'm going to see a lot. So, I also realized, “oh, some people don't know about their spirit. They don't practice spirit. They don’t even believe in it. They don’t know it.” It’s something you have to be – you can evolve…same as your energy. Your awareness of your energy. It’s something you can study and become more aware of.
CV: Did you feel like your thoughts from your “regular” life, as it were, the things that you might concern yourself with — I kind of think what you were saying is that you just have to be totally present in that moment and nowhere else. But did you find yourself going to your loved ones or thinking about other people — you know going off into another space and then pulling yourself back or did you feel like you really maintained your presence there.
EL: Well, my family, my oldest sister, her husband and my brother, came every day – multiple times a day. So this is a good example of, you know, people that I know. And, I think our relationship as siblings has drastically changed because of this experience.
CV That's interesting
EL: Because we couldn't rely on each other how we had been relying on each other in the past. My oldest sister and me, as the youngest sister – we had to reevaluate and change our relationship. And it was forced to think of itself “In the now.” And, I give my older sister as an example because at some point I realized that if my oldest sister would die, of course, I thought a lot about death.
CV: Yeah
EL: …when she dies and then it becomes – when – there’s no if...everything is on the point. Yeah. I can't hide anymore. I can’t hide from the fact that I’m fasting. I am hungry. It is uncomfortable. I don't know artistically where this is going to go. Because I think one day after I started, which I didn't know when it was, because I was in it, and I had no connection to the news world – I did not know about the conflict that had started between Israel and Palestine – but still I had – that you are obliged, you have no other way of thinking, and including human suffering.
CV: Yeah
EL: Because this is where you're at. So with my sister at some point I was confronted by the reality that if I continue living, at some point my sister is going to be dead.
CV: Yeah.
EL: And so, I cannot imagine a world without my sister. But it's right there. You know, it's not like, oh, as if I had thought about it by myself here. Of course, I thought about it by myself. But there, it’s right there because it's like a confrontation – a reality – that you are forced to acknowledge and to sit with it…you can’t say, oh yes,yes, yes , let’s go for a drink. Or French Fries now…
CV: I have to stop you right now, as our Zoom session is about to end….will call you back!!
END OF PART ONE.
End of the performance. Day 12.
Review excerpt from ——- Contemporary Burlington, UK
by Dominic Johnson
Reviews / Exhibition • 25.10.2023
Nonetheless, the exhibition is bookended by brilliance, culminating with The House with the Ocean View. The work is being restaged by three performers across the duration of the exhibition: Elke Luyten, Amanda Coogan and Kira O’Reilly. Each performs continuously for twelve days without reprieve, subject to strict rules set by Abramović, who forbids the performer to eat, talk, read or write and limits their actions to simple movements. What might seem draconian, totalitarian or punitive is in fact the use of constructive limitation in choreography or composition: there is freedom here. Choices may be made within the strict anti-logic of the piece. During this reviewer’s visit, Luyten takes one of three permitted daily showers. A highbacked chair with a crystal headrest has been overturned. There is little movement: slow dressing, drinking water, a loud burp. At one point, she lays down and raises an arm aloft, sending a silent, enigmatic signal, but not waving. Luyten looks gaunt and hollow-eyed, walks gingerly, slightly stooped. Her behaviour recalls that of hermits and anchorites, prisoners, hostages or captives on hunger strike: people who elect to deprive themselves of comforts, and those on whom deprivation is imposed. The wall text states that The House with the Ocean View aims to produce a state of ‘luminosity’ in which the body and its pains and privations may be transcended.
In addition to the disciplinary regime of the performance, the women encased within the tripartite architecture of The House with the Ocean View are barred from leaving by ladders with knives for rungs. It is a domestic space. It could be a prison cell, barrack or monastic chamber, but the naming of it as a ‘house’ strains at this – but for a prison cell with an ocean view. Luyten’s inhabitation of House demonstrates the vigour, dynamism and lasting power of Abramović’s work. It also reminds us that our duty is often to wrench a work or an œuvre from its given discursive framing to allow it to say more than an artist or museum might otherwise let it. Luyten is elevated by some eight feet, but looks attenuated. She stares out as if from a great distance, from a mountaintop or from deep in the abyss. She appears to be interminably patient, but diminished, as though waiting not for something, nor for nothing, but for the end of time.
More about Elke Luyten: In 2015, Luyten created the choreography for, and performed throughout David Bowie’s short film “Blackstar.” Luyten also performed in Bowie’s final music video, “Lazarus.” In 2010, Luyten re-performed in several of Marina Abramović’s pieces at the exhibition “Marina Abramović: The Artist Is Present” at the MoMA. She also performed in Robert Wilson’s work, “The Life and Death of Marina Abramović”, which has toured internationally. Luyten curated the International Summer Fellowship program at the Stiftung Insel Hombroich in Germany in 2013. Luyten teaches workshops that focus on the dramatic presence of the performer. She has taught at the Department of Drama at New York University in New York, Pomona College in California, Theatre of Yugen in San Francisco, Hippocampe Centre d’Etude du Mouvement in Paris, Kyoto University of Art and Design, and many other places. She is a regular guest teacher at Notafe’s International Dance School in Estonia and at the Paris Summer Academy for dance. Her work has been showcased internationally at the REDCAT in Los Angeles: the International Conference on Performance Art Theory in Mexico; the Dream Shot Festival in Belgium; the NOTAFE International Dance Festival in Estonia and Honen-in Temple in Japan. In New York, her work has been presented at Movement Research at the Judson Church, AUNTS, Dixon Place, Dance New Amsterdam, FLICfest, CAVE, BKSD, Danspace Project, and Dance and Process at The Kitchen. In her most recent project, she worked with director Johan Renck and Adam Sandler.
Link to her work on this site. and Zus Performance
Stay tuned for Part II — next week.
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